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 Post subject: Schatten Pickup Winder?
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:46 pm 
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I am talking to a guy about trading for a Schatten pickup winder, book, and some supplies. I haven't negotiated a deal yet, but one is in process.

The question is - am I crazy? I don't need one really. But I work on amps and guitars quite a bit and have worked on pickups on a more limited basis. Sure I install pickups in guitars all the time and all sorts of that kind of work. But I have repaired a few by slightly unwinding and salvaged a few this way, and I pot them too for people. So I am been a bit itchy to try my luck at winding some as well.

I know you can modify a sewing machine to wind a pickup, but if I can work at a deal on an actual winder it might be worth it. Plus, I could trade it off too if it were a name brand if I tire of it. I hope to rewind a few of my own first to learn on them. To buy the parts from Stewmac costs around $25 a pickup, actually a little bit more. That isn't a great deal, but surely I can find better prices if I look. But right now, I will be content rewinding a few around here. Might come in handy on some old Electra or Westone pickups. I had a few in the past with some issues. Unfortunately, I don't know if I have any around currently.

Anybody try their hand at this?

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Check out the project guitar forum:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?act=idx

There are several people there that make there own pickups. I have never tried but everything I have heard is that it is a blast. You can always rework dead pups to start.


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Sounds like an expensive hobby, but as you say, you could always sell it if it wasn't everything you hoped it would be... I've got a tin ear, it would be wasted on me!

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Just worked out a deal on a winder (not a schatten though). We shall see what happens. Wish me luck.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Location: Ontario Canada
I used to think it would be a neat hobby too but I can't find the time to engage my primary hobby.....playing guitar. Schatten is in Kitchener Ontario, about 30 miles from me and I looked into the winder but found it expensive.

There is a guy in Hamilton ON that custom winds / re-winds and he is very reasonable.......I couldn't do it for the price he charges so I just leave the work I need done with him.

I think he used a hobby wood lathe by the way.

I don't know if we can endorse any businesses on this forum but Jon is a real nice guy and has a good hear for tone. Check him out : http://www.tonefordays.com/

Ben


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Got the winder. This one is a chinese coil winder, and is really nice. BUT...
It goes WAY TOO FAST. It has four speed settings, and auto ramps up and down, and you can save settings. I can program a number of turns and it will go, slow start, speed up (to light speed), and when near finished it will slow down to a stop. Very cool except for that light speed part. The previous owner got around that by another motor, with a variable control on it (like a fan variable speed control). That will work, but the auto and program functions won't work. I really want that. So I may attempt to modify it if it can be done.

I don't know anything about this however. But that has never stopped me before.

"Boldly going where every other man has better sense than to go!" (star trek theme playing in the background)

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:10 am 
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Would it be possible to put a control in just before the motor. That way it would not interfere with the program but could take something of the top speed?


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:46 am 
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Thorny wrote:
...
Very cool except for that light speed part. The previous owner got around that by another motor, with a variable control on it (like a fan variable speed control). That will work, but the auto and program functions won't work. I really want that. So I may attempt to modify it if it can be done.
...


Would it be possible to change the ratio between the drive motor and the winding axle? Please post photos! I'd love to see one of those things.

One of the ol' skool guitar shops here in STL has a winder that he made years ago using a sewing machine motor and foot pedal speed control. Seems like he had some counter device to keep track of the number of windings, too.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Don't have a pic yet, but I will post one when I get it. Yes, this one has a sewing machine motor on it too. It must be a standard size.

Yes it has a belt and a pulley on the motor and the winding axle. I might try running directly on the motor shaft itself to see if that will drop it some, but the pulley is not that much of a larger diameter. The one on the winding shaft is fairly large, and making it MUCH larger might be cumbersome. I'll have to post a pic to show you. I could even possibly look for a LOW SPEED sewing machine motor too, but that would be expensive. :(

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:02 pm 
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I google'd and found some images and videos of the Schatten in action. I bet once you get used to it the speed won't be a problem. Probably better to spend the time making a few pickups rather than modding the winder.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:04 pm 
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I wound up getting a chinese coil winder (model FT-2190 but the documentation says JLW 2190), not the schatten. The schatten is nearly $400! The chinese one does more and I got it by trading a transformer I wasn't using (worth around a $100) and a couple of tubes (worth about $50). It effectively cost me a few shipping dollars in cash to ship my stuff to Maine to trade the guy. If I could figure this out there may be room for making modifications to Chinese industrial winders and selling a more full featured winder for less money. I am all for schatten making his money, but it doesn't do a lot of things this one can. This one appears to be a well built industrial piece of equipment.

It is way more advanced than the schatten, but is about 2-3x faster (way too fast for pickups). It may be running at around 2400 RPM at the slowest speed. You can't wind a pickup at that unless you are superman. The electronic controls are VERY NICE. You can program speed, number of winds, and save/recall them. The electronic controls auto start slowly and gets up to speed, then slows down for a controlled stop at the right number of winds. I would like to use the electronic controls, but roll the top speed back to a speed I can effectively wind at. It runs on 220v/50hz, but came with a transformer converting 110v to 220v. That is what the whole unit runs at (electronic controls and all). It uses a sewing machine motor from what I can see. You can't very well well drop voltage on the whole unit or the electronic controls won't work (I really want that functional counter and other features).

I could try to control the speed from the electronic control unit to the motor. It has two wires. It is a sewing machine motor. I looked some up. Right now I am wondering if the FM190-220v sewing machine motor-foot control combination will work. I can get it for about $30. I could (in the theory swimming around in my head) run the two wires from the control unit to the new foot controller then into the new motor and control the speed that way. It could be a cool and cheap fix. I would possibly have two extra motors left over, a 220v one and a 110v one. I could contact the sewing machine parts place and see if they can get me just a foot controller and try to control my existing motor, but I don't think a foot controller alone is much cheaper than the $24 + ship for that motor and controller together (+ ship). I did send them a message telling the specs on my motor and asking them the specs on theirs.

The 220v motor that seems to have come with the unit says (the English part)
"Lion Ball" (seems to be the brand name) HF75-28 (model number?)
220v 50Hz .75A
150w 75w (not sure if that is high/low wattage usage?)
8500 r/min SI E IP20 (8500 revolutions per min, maybe a model or tech info)

The 60Hz US power might make it run even 20% faster. despite the included power transformer that is kicking up the voltage from 110v to 220v.

The problem, I don't know HOW the controller tracks and controls the motor's speed. If it is electronically controlled by the sensor that it uses for counting the windings I am likely toast. I don't think it is, but I don't know. If it just bases the speed on the motor and the voltage that is applied to that particular motor and belt drive (pulleys) then it I am likely fine. But when you have two speed controllers and you don't understand how they work, you can't be certain how they will work together. That is the problem.

Modifying the pulleys would work (as long as the speed isn't sensor controlled), but that will likely cost me more than the motor an I don't have the machine shop to do it. I know people that can, but I can't. That large pulley is in place with a shim, and would have to be pulled with a wheel puller I suppose. The small one is VERY small, only slightly larger than the shaft itself, so not much to work with there.

The guy that I got it from just put a different 110v motor and used a variable speed controller for it (like a dimmer switch) on it. That gives you a functional manual winder. The electronic part can still count, but it is not controlled by all the electronics and you lose all the nice features. I'd like it to work properly. I suppose if I knew how to program the actual code running the thing I *might* be able to program the slower speeds into it. That is beyond me though.

A 220V variac inserted in there would work, but that is OVERKILL. (I have a 110V one for my amp work, but alas, no 220V one - and I don't want to buy one). A much slower motor might work if I could find one inexpensively. I was also thinking of a 220V fan speed controller wired between the unit and the motor, again, not likely as cheap as the other motor and speed control together.

Anybody know more about this stuff than me? I understand guitar and tube gear pretty well, but this has me scratching my head. I wish I was an EE. Even a schematic of this thing might help. I haven't really started with it yet, I am just in the thinkin' stage. I'll keep at it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:15 pm 
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I almost got a schatten, but the guy didn't get back to me on the trade and the guy with the other wider did and at a much lower price no doubt. Right now it can pretty well do what a schatten does with its manual control. I just want to use all its advantages. It is like having an MPC and only having the guitar part working - sure you can use it, but I want it all to work :D

Here is a link to the same winder on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Coil-audio-Output-transformer-motor-winding-machine-2-/270498032721?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3efaf06c51#ht_850wt_1026

I don't even have any wire yet, likely something I will purchase soon.

Anyone have any decent broken pickups they want to sell me cheap? Or even good ones you won't likely use? Not looking for strat or tele types that have the magnet glued onto the bottom - those type are not worth the cost of the wire to rewind them. But anything that is a normal looking humbucker, alnico strat or tele, a mini humbucker, or whatever. Broken is good. Cheap price is very good too. Duncan Designed types are fine. Epiphone - OK. Anything that is "normal" and has not been epoxied.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Ok, I see what you've got now.

PM'd you with some ideas.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:46 am 
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These do indeed have sewing machine motors on them.

I made a discovery while working with the external motor that is on there now. The startup procedure and stopping procedure does indeed slow it down (on the included motor) and it actually has a brake! So, the standard motor revs up for a number or winds at a slower level, then to normal high speed. Then when it gets down to a number of winds from completing it slows down, then hit a break at the count it is programed to end. When you use an external motor it will do this too, but the motor does not speed up or slow down. When the break hits it is not a good thing for the brake or the motor if you are using an external motor. But I do now have a better understanding.

I think I will order the cheap new 220v motor bundle with the foot speed control. It wasn't too expensive. I don't have all the specs on it but I probably can use that variable foot pedal. It is only a few dollars more than a pedal by itself, and the pedals sold by themselves don't say whether they are for 220v or not. It stands to reason the one bundled with the 220v motor is made for 220v.

The alternative is a resistor to slow all the speeds down. That would be very cheap once I did some trial and error, but the variable foot pedal should offer a lot greater flexibility on the speed. I can move the maximum to very fast or quite slow as needed when I am starting or working with different pickup stock. So - I am ordering it. Wish me luck.

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 2:04 pm 
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I got my parts in and it all works! I put a different 220v motor with a foot controller on it. I connected it electrically to where the previous motor was connected (out of the control unit, into the foot pedal, and then to the motor). The initial result was that the motor ran backwards - hmmm - not good. I flipped the motor and all it well. I was lucky because when flipped it requires spacers, but the substitute 110v motor had those on it. Everything works, and seems to pretty well like it should.

Now I need supplies (wire, the correct two sided tape to mount the coils to the mandrel (is that the right term and spelling?), the pickup coil tape, a charging magnet, magnets, and some other stuff. If you have a good pickup that needs a rewind let me know. I will charge only what the parts cost me and shipping.

Anybody need a good 110v sewing machine motor, variable speed controller (like for a ceiling fan), and the mounting bracket, power plug, and plug in for the variable speed? You can make a winder too (need a shaft, pully, belt, and a mandrel on it, mounted to a platform, and a counter would be nice). You have about half a winder there. Anyhow, it works fine I just changed out because I wanted the 220v one operated by the electronic controller. I would trade it for stuff, including toward a guitar. parts, or a pickup.

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